C5 Diff to Big Car Saginaw with C5 Rear Suspension

C5 Diff to Big Car Saginaw with C5 Rear Suspension

Postby Louisville Lanning » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:20 pm

Back in October 2016 several inquiries were received from Registry members interested in updating their 'stock' Crown conversions to something more dependable and durable. They were aware that a number of members had very successfully changed their Crowns over to BC Powerglides mated to Corvette C5 differentials. For them this was an unacceptable combination because they still wanted to manually shift gears. A dependable 4-speed manual transmission or even a reasonably priced 5-speed manual transmission is the direction that they were looking to go. To add additional interest to the topic, the inclusion of a narrowed Corvette C5 rear suspension was added to the discussion. At the time I had conversations with Chris Wills, Mike Levine and Archibald Evans on this topic. All three members are quite familiar with what it takes to upgrade a 'stock' Crown conversion and so their expertise on this topic was welcomed.

In my conversation with Mike Levine, he pointed out one obvious, but frequently overlooked problem with any upgraded power train in a Corvair that uses a manual transmission rather than an automatic. If you have an engine with high HP and torque grounded to fat sticky tires, you can expect to break something in between if you drag race or speed shift. The best manual transmission and differential will tolerate this type of abuse for only a limited time. Mike pointed out that the 'stock' Crown setup in good condition will handle up to 450 HP, but it's not bulletproof. He believes that a Jerico 4-speed mated to a C5 differential is a great choice, but also indicates that using a BC Saginaw is easier. Here's Mike Levine's comments from 12-24-16:

Well, the making of the mainshaft to replace a Original Crown is easy, same as one for Wills style.
The replacements that I do are superior to the originals. With me supplying everything about $300.
I can have the Jerico to C5 adaptors made just like the one in the racer for 7 to 800 bucks.
A freshly rebuilt Jerico is about $2500 and another $150 to have the mainshaft resplined to fit the C5 Diff.
A big car Saginaw to C5 is easier as the mainshaft doesn't have to be reworked.
About the same price for that adapter.
You can also put an unmodified big car Saginaw mainshaft in a Crown Transmission with a C5 adapter and still retain the Crown Shifter.
The adapters are easy.
Figuring the rear wheel bearings and axle shafts plus the Shifter is the hard part if you want to retain the stock suspension as with my racer.
I can have all the adaptors and mainshafts made easily.
I just can't afford to make one of each and have them sit on the shelve. Mike


An email from Archibald Evans on 10-21-16 offered the following:

I appreciate your thinking of me. Yes I have a lot of NOS parts left over from Aesthetic Design Engineering LLC. And I have resources. I have: full-size Sag to C5 diff and to Quick-Change, Jeroco to C5 diff and to Quick-Change, I also have Corvair Sag to C5 diff and Power-Glide. As well as a plethora of support parts...
Arch followed up with a phone call on 10-21-16 in which he indicated that he can provide adapters to mate BC Saginaw 4-speeds to C5 diffs for $450.

WHERE FROM HERE?

Before the PCG Workshop in Bowling Green, I had several emails from Keith Waters, a newer member who lives in TN about updating the drive train of his Corvair. Keith indicated that he is willing to document with a CAD program all the dimensions necessary to fabricate the parts for installing a C5 Differential and C5 rear suspension under a Corvair. He sent some pictures and asked for any drawings that show the Corvair alignment points.

His inquiry prompted the following email to a select group of Registry members:

Guys,

You were selected to receive this email based on your description of your Corvair conversion and it's features shown on the Registry website.

The Registry has had a number of inquiries from members looking to update their Crown drive trains with C5 differentials and C5 rear suspensions. As a group I am hoping that many of you can offer your expertise and fabrication skills to help other members avoid a lot of duplication and unnecessary expense. Some of you have already converted your conversions to C5 diffs and few have made the C5 rear suspension modification too. To date I am not aware of any members who have drawings and/or dimensions for their modified C5 rear suspensions.

We have a new member who has started working on the CAD drawings for the C5 rear suspension. Keith Waters lives in TN and is willing to share the dimensions with other members once he gets everything documented. Here's what Keith has to say:

Hey John,
I received the T shirt. Thanks. Since then I have started working on the CAD drawings of the C5 rear suspension. Since dimensions are rare, I have been working off of pictures and what little dimensions I can find. I take pictures of the rear suspension I have and paste them into my cad software. I mic what dimensions I can. I found a diagram of the C5 cradle mounting points on the frame, so I have that spacing. The differential in the attached pictures is almost finished. Those are mostly hard dimensions taken from my diff. The cradle is not quite finished. The A arms I just started. Still have the upper A arms, spindles, shocks,etc. to go. When I get it all in CAD, then I can then I can start on the Corvair dimensions. Once I get that then I can determine how much needs to be cut out of the corvette cradle. The Corvair info is going to be harder to get and measure.
It is a slow process. Do you know of anyone that has any drawings of the Corvair frame alignment points, or any other info that may be useful? Anything would be appreciated. Look at the attachments and see what you think. I made two of the pics with white background more suitable for printing.


Keith Waters

Keith has also sent some pictures of what he has done so far. See attachments below.

Can anyone provide Keith with any drawings that show the Corvair frame alignment points? If so, you can speed up his work. You can call Keith at 865-435-2169. If you send him an email, please copy your officers on any correspondence. We all hope to learn from this joint project as we try to improve our cars and make them more competitive. All information developed from this project will be shared with all members and will be displayed on our website.

I'm counting on you guys to assist us with this project and I look forward to seeing your comments and ideas.

John, Pres



RESPONSES RECEIVED TO MY EMAIL:

1. Bruce Weeks was the first to respond with the following note on 3-18-17:

I have some dimensions from doing my Boxster S/C4 rear suspension, but I'm out of town until 3/29. If you don't get any answers before that, I'll dig them out.

2. Then Don Millspaugh sent the following note on 3-19-17

Hi;

My Corvair is actually in Texas getting the body done, C4 Front suspension, Camaro Grill and body stripped and painted. I’ll be using the C5 rear suspension but with a Boxster trans axel mated to an Audi 2.7TT V6 or V8. I just ordered (2)

Sets of frame alignment drawings and will send one set to you for information and use for club members. I won’t be doing my Corvair (65 convertible/mid-engine) for a while (66 Shelby replica, 77 Bronco, 75 TR6/V6) too many projects.

Please send an address so I can forward the diagrams to you.

Have a great day

Don Millspaugh


3. Mike Levine followed with following email on 3-19-17

I stayed with the stock rear suspension and adapted the C5 wheel bearings and Hubs.
If you are a current Crown this is the simplest way to do it.
There are some flaws Though which I will address;
The drive train is offset to the left 2 inches. On the street this isn't an issue but on the track, with multiple laps of 140 + MPH the shorter left axle runs hotter. Add the fact that the car is lower and your drive shaft angles get severe. The cure? Raise the back of the transaxle and center the drive train.
When I install the 433 SBC I will make the changes.
I have played with expensive high temp Grease and high temp silicone boots and can get the left axle to live through a race weekend. The right axle never gives an issue.
I will gladly take servicing an Axle with out the worry of destroying a diff than going back to the stock diff which is a Bomb waiting to go off.
Which ever way you convert or build its an expensive and time consuming build but the rewards are worth it. Mike

4. Paul Beck responded with the following note on 3-19-17:


I agree with you, Mike, on the offset. Wish I had given it more thought, centering everything up would have made things easier, like being able to have a replacement halfshaft on hand. :(
Paul


5. Jim Hart offered the following comments on 3-19-17

Keith,

I’m not on the road yet, but I’ll give you what information I can. I am changing my direction from originally using a Porsche 930 Turbo transaxle, I have plans for it involving a 914. My goal is to have something I can romp on without cringing, so I currently have a 2004 C5 differential and an adapter plate from Archibald Evans. I’m mocking up using an empty LS block with a Lakewood scatter shield and a Saginaw case adapted to the C5. The transmission planned on is an aftermarket aluminum Ford toploader 4 speed (also with an adapter from Arch) which unlike a Saginaw was designed for big blocks and is VERY stout. It’s also available in close or wide ratios. It’s the forerunner to Jerico 4 speeds and the same bolt pattern, but unlike it will have sychro gears. Like the Saginaw, bell housings are available from Chevy BB or SB to Jerico.

I’m running 315/35-17 on 11” in the rear. Backspace on the fronts is 4.5”, and 7.5” on the rears which from the outside gives identical “dish” front and rear. That backspace is within ¼” of the maximum the wheel manufacturer would build. With that tire in the back I had to remove the stock spring perch, ‘tub’ the wheel well 3” and roll the fender lips up. With all of that done I can run a C5 subframe which has been narrowed by 8” (and 4” per axle). In addition, a relief must be cut in the passenger side rear of the aluminum subframe to clearance the positraction housing. I’ve also found that the diff can be positioned rearward an inch or so if you need it. The axles only go to about 4 degrees.

Anything more than 8” from the subframe and you run the lower control arm mounts into the diff. Any less than 8” out of the subframe becomes problematic as you push the wheels into the outer wells (I did NOT want to cut or re-shape the outer wheel wells).

If I can be of any further assistance, please contact me.

Jim Hart


6. Bruce Weeks sent the following on 3-19-17

I too, set the diff back 1" as well as down 1" from the hub C/L. Back put the balancer behind the rear seat front cross member, and down lowered the rear roll center to 5.07" off the pavement.


7. Chris Wills added the following comments on 3-21-17

John,

Because the C5 diff is not offset like the Corvair, I moved my engine over to the passenger side by 1.25" Now this keeps the suspension equal on both sides. Not sure if there is enough room to keep the Crown offset dimension and have room for the C5 A arms on the drivers side.

Chris Wills

8. Mike Levine then added a picture of his prototype C5 cradle with the following comments on 3-21-17

I built this on the fly. I'm swapping diffs this week for the Mitty, the 3.42 is coming out and the 3.15 is going in. The cradle I built is just the prototype that I plan on altering some day.
I will take picks of everything when I take it out.
But yes, I will share all my info no problem.

9. Cary Eisenlohr responded to Chris Wills (item #7) comment on 3-21-17

Chris,
We were talking about the same thing at our corvair meeting last night in So Cal. We didn't know of there was enough room in a crown sub frame to move it over that much with out causing other problems. For sure you must keep the suspension arm lengths equal length.
Cary

10. John Lanning sent the following email to Mike Levine on 3-21-17

Mike,
When you move from the prototype to the finished cradle is it possible to set it up in CAD for others to use? If you don't have or use CAD, do you know someone who does? Maybe you should consider making C5 cradles for other members?
John

11. Mike Levine responded back with the following comment on 3-21-17

When I make the final edition you can have the original and do what you want with it. Mike

12. Paul Beck responded back about offering his design (with automatic transmission)for other members to use on 3-21-17

I certainly don't mind sharing information with anyone that needs it. I don't do CAD and am not aware of anyone in the area that has the capacity to do it. I'll be glad to take as many pictures as I can if those would help. Also remember that my mounting design has many features that John Black used on his conversion and John may have additional information.

Paul

13. Chris Wills responded back to Cary Eisenlohr (item #9) with the following comment on 3-21-17

I have a Kelmark crossmember that I modified and the C5 A arms fit. I did not use the C5 lower cradle though.


14. Richard Miller posted the following comments and asked a question about C6 & C7 diffs on 3-22-17

your post ,, and research ,, on C5 conversions being a good example
though differential is not directly applicable to my car ,, adapting
the corvette hubs and brakes may well prove useful in my future as I
would like to get rear discs on my car ..
all info on our conversions is helpful to those of us who drive them

consider the Corvair ,,
has any car been more tinkered with ? more swapped around ?
front , rear , and mid engine all in corvairs ,,, ever see a mid or
rear 69 Camaro ?
rear wheel drive , front wheel drive ,, 4 wheel drive in corvairs
4,6,8 cylinders , air and water cooled
front , mid and rear radiators
Chevy small , big ,, and LS ,,( I haven't seen a 348/409 ... yet )
ford , Chrysler hemi , Buick , Oldsmobile and Cadillac
also imports ,, Nissan , Honda , Subaru and Audi
have all powered conversions I have seen ,, mostly within our members cars
automatics of two , three and four speeds
3,4,5 speed manual trans
straight axle , front and rear , suspensions ,,and IRS and IFS from
corvettes to custom built
gasser look , pro street , pro touring , road racer , drag racer

and corvair engines have in turn been in cars , trucks , RVs , boats
and airplanes

what an inspirational car it is to be the subject of so many tinkering minds

any way ,, thanks for all you do for the Registry

one question if I may , I posted on a thread but never got a response

are later C6 and C7 differentials same as C5 ?


15. Keith Waters appreciates the response and interest from members. He sent the following email with some updated pictures on 3-22-17
WHEN VIEWING PICTURES, CLICK ON THEM FOR FULL SIZE VIEWING

Hey John,
I have managed to add a few more parts. I did not model the engine block. It was obtained off of the internet. Spindles need more work.

The only critical dimensions at this time are the cradle mounting holes and pins, wheel base ( hub to hub ), upper and lower "A" arm mounting points, and a few others. If you look closely you will see that the C5 frame mounting points that I have do not coincide with the cradle hole elevations. The frame locating points are located at the bottom of the purple cylinders. Tops are irrelevant. If I were to raise the front of the cradle it would throw off the alignment of the "A" arms, diff center line along with trans and engine center line.I may have the wrong dimensions of the C5 frame points but they sure seem close in all other aspects. I am pretty sure that the "A" arms are parallel to the ground. Maybe some members can see what is going on and relate back. They may have a C5 or friends that have C5's. Good pics would be great.

In the mean time, I will continue to add parts until I am satisfied that I have all that is necessary then start on the Corvair model.

Keith Waters


16. Four additional pictures submitted by Keith Waters with the following comments on 3-28-17

Attached are some new pics after adding shocks, engine heads and a few other engine parts. The Corvair was bought ($55) on the internet. I turned some parts transparent and removed a lot of other parts that were irrelevant. Stock Corvair wheels and tires at this time. Corvair body may or may not be exact. I understand that these models are made from pictures. Still looks pretty good. I have to do the transmission, bellhousing, and a few others. Nothing has been narrowed at this point. Still many details to go over. I was incorrect on the C5 saddle position. The A arms are parallel to the ground viewing from the rear. It is not from the side. The cradle tilts up in the front. The frame elevations ( bottom of pink cylinders ) I showed in the previous pics were correct. I have tilted the cradle and all parts attached to it.

Starting to run out of hard dimensions. I am amazed at the lack of information on the C5 Corvette on the internet. Especially the suspension drawings, geometry and the like.

Still working on it a little at a time as I get info.

Keith Waters


17. On 4-19-17 Keith Waters and Chris Wills talked by phone and Keith sent the following email regarding that conversation:

I spoke with Chris Wills this evening. Great conversation. Nice guy.

We went over a lot of stuff and he has some good advise. He is to send pictures of what he has and maybe I can get something I need from them.

I have had a little time to look at narrowing the C5 cradle. The difference between the Corvette and Corvair track width is 7 inches. I think I am going with 8 inches narrower. This is a bit short but will allow a little wider wheel and tire combo. There is an interference issue on the right side. A 7 inch narrower cradle will also have the interference issues. As you can see in the pictures,( DIFF STOCK 1 and DIFF STOCK 2) the diff will hit the narrowed cradle. In picture (STOCK UP 1&5 1) the diff is raised up 1 1/2 inches. This clears the cradle. I also thought about moving the diff rearward 2 inches and up 1 1/2 as in pictures DIFF 1 and DIFF 2. I am not sure about the interference of the shocks as of yet. This would help in the comfort zone in the drivers seat. This would have to have a 3/4 inch plate added to the cradle but that's not a big deal. The quest for info goes on.

Also on the thought pattern is to use C5 Corvette rear frame rails so the upper A Arms would be located correctly along with the upper shock mounts.

Keith Waters

18. On 4-20-17, Archibald Evans posted the following comment:

I have adapters and welding fixtures for this adaptation... ADE

19. On 4-21-17 Keith Waters received the drawings from Don Millspaugh regarding Corvair Frame Alignment Points and commented:

I purchased this same drawing off of E-bay about 3 weeks ago. (about $8.00) It is kinda crude and measurements are done with a tape measure on some dimensions. It did have some useful measurements but not sure if any are factory dimensions.


20. An additional 11 pictures were submitted by Keith Waters on 5-10-17. This latest work includes 3D images of a narrowed C5 suspension.

Attached are some photos of the work I have done lately. The photos of the C5 cradle is the work of a $50,000 3D scanner. Along with $10,000 software and a $3,000 laptop. I just wish they were mine. They were a fellow that spoke at our Tennessee Inventors Association meeting last month. Works for Prototyping Solutions out of Birmingham, AL. If you look close, you can even see the casting marks. It will scan at a resolution within .002 of an inch. That's a little less that a hair. It took about 30 minutes to scan. It took me many hours to do the same part shown in previous pics in the forum and is not as precise. The pink cradle is the same scan with 8" removed from the center.

The other pics are of the drawings I have and were put into my 3D printer. They are 1/3 scale. I thought this may be cheaper than cutting up the real thing for now. The cradle alone took 16 hours to print. I bolted on the Differential side covers and rear cover as they were made separately. Also the diff mount. I still have to design the spindles and print them.

I am going to get a C5 bare frame tomorrow to see what I can use from it. Hoping to use the rear frame rails as they locate the cradle, upper "A" arms and shock mounts. Maybe one day I can start on the real thing.

Just wanted to let you know I am still working on stuff.

Keith Waters
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Last edited by Louisville Lanning on Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:47 am, edited 27 times in total.
Reason: Four pictures added on 3-28-17
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Re: C5 Diff to Big Car Saginaw with C5 Rear Suspension

Postby Louisville Lanning » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:24 pm

I thought that it would be beneficial to members to know which members have expressed an interest in C5 upgrades and those who have completed such changes. Also included here are those members who have used either Porsche or Pantera components to build their conversions.

MEMBERS WITH C5 DIFFERENTIALS

Rick Andersen, Paul Beck, John Black, Steve Elliot, Brad Granger, Rod Tetrault and Chris Wills

MEMBERS INTERESTED IN CONVERTING TO C5 COMPONENTS

Mark Allen, Archibald Evans, Chet Galek, Alan Koharcheck, Mike McCrae, Dan Morrison, John Taylor, John Banks and Keith Waters

MEMBERS WITH PORSCHE DRIVETRAIN COMPONENTS

Tim Barrie, James Dunham, Jim Hart, Tony Maxson, Sean Sutorius and Bruce Weeks

MEMBERS WITH PANTERA DRIVETRAIN COMPONENTS

Russ Brandenburg and Guy Desjardins

If you wish to add your name to one of these groups contact me or post your reply to this topic

Chris Wills has supplied some valuable information on C5 components. Once I talk to him, I will add more details under this topic.
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Re: C5 Diff to Big Car Saginaw with C5 Rear Suspension

Postby Louisville Lanning » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:39 pm

John Banks also has a strong interest in the C5 Differential installation in a Corvair. He has looked at some of the information supplied by others and has made the following recent comments. Here's John Bank's comments from his 10-26-2017 email to me:


There are a couple of questions that have come to mind, after reading through the forum, again, that I would like to bring up for comment.

On 12/24/2016, Mike Levine commented: “You can also put an unmodified big car Saginaw mainshaft in a Crown Transmission with a C5 adapter and still retain the Crown Shifter.” This tells me that the machining detail on the front end of the Crown mainshaft and the big car Saginaw mainshaft, as well as the pocket in the back of the input shaft, have to be identical. If so, we can further conclude that Ted Trevor was using stock, unmodified, GM input shafts in his Crown kits. My question is: Is the center-to-center dimension from the centerline of the input and mainshaft, to the centerline of the cluster gear shaft, the same on both the Corvair/Crown Saginaw transmission and the big car Saginaw transmission? If they are, then we may be able to install big car gears in a Crown transmission, providing there are no other critical differences. I remember that Crown, at one time, offered close ratio gears as an option, and I now suspect that those may have been stock GM parts, as well. It would be a big help to have a higher first gear in the car, as with the stock 3.11 first gear, I run out of RPM range, pretty quickly. I’m probably going to continue to use the Crown modified transaxle at least for a while, but I intend to go to the C5 differential, down the road. Either way, not having to modify the shifter may be a plus (for me).

On 10/21/2016, Archibald Evans mentioned the use of a quick-change rear end. I’ve seen the photos of Arch’s SuperVair, and it’s impressive! I have two questions: What quick-change rear end was used in the SuperVair, and what does the dimension from the centerline of the rear axle to the bellhousing mounting surface on the engine wind up being (I understand the SuperVair used a Powerglide). Like most of us, I’m looking for a way to push the engine a little further to the rear, to gain some legroom.

On 3/19/2017, Jim Hart mentioned the use of a Ford Toploader transmission. To me, this would be an attractive alternative, primarily because it’s a very strong transmission, and also, because it’s fully synchronized. Jim mentioned that he got the required parts from Arch Evans, and I want to investigate this option a little further.
I’ve begun to play with the dimensions on the C5 install, myself, and I would point out that when you discuss narrowing the C5 for installation into a Corvair, you also have to bear in mind the intended rear wheel offset. I intend to use a Corvette rear wheel, so the offset will be in the range of +50mm to +56mm. Using these wheels, the cradle doesn’t need to be narrowed as much as has been discussed, something more on the order of 5-1/2” – 6”, which may help. The difference in the rear tread dimensions between the C5 Corvette and the Corvair is 5.4”. It looks like a 255mm section width tire will fit into the stock Corvair wheelwell without modifications. If more than that is needed, modifications (of some sort) would be required.

John Banks



John Banks supplied a number of C5 frame drawings that he acquired and offers them for your viewing. These pictures are difficult to view. THESE PICTURES WILL BE REPLACED AS SOON AS JOHN BANKS CAN SEND REPLACEMENTS. THE FOLLOWING DISCLAIMER GOES WITH THESE DRAWINGS

As I said, in my earlier email, these are NOT my measurements, and I have made no attempt to reconcile any discrepancies. Anyone using these dimensions should clearly understand that, should verify them, and should proceed only at their own risk.
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Re: C5 Diff to Big Car Saginaw with C5 Rear Suspension

Postby Tony Martin » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:06 pm

I'm also going with a C5 diff to BC Saginaw in my latest build.

I'm currently finishing up my C5 diff to BC Saginaw adapter, and I expect to be starting to disassemble the car soon.
(First I had to get the new garage built & also get the new lift installed :D )

I understand that the typical build assumes that the oil in the trans & diff would combine during normal use. I’ve seen the recommendations from the Wills kit to drill holes in the trans & in the adapter plate to allow the oil to move freely between the two. I did this on my original build in 1969 with my Saginaw 3 speed & Corvair diff. However, from what I can tell, the full level in the C5 diff is about 1 3/8 inches lower than the trans level. So if the level is correct for the trans, the diff would be somewhat over normal level. I remember hearing about warnings to not overfill differentials because of whipping up froth. (maybe need a windage tray in the diff? ;) ) What is recommended by the ones who already have these running?

Also I plan on using the Royal Purple’s Max-Gear 75W90 since it’s plainly stated on the bottle to be completely compatible with both the synchros and the LSD. Is there something better?

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Re: C5 Diff to Big Car Saginaw-GROUP 1

Postby Louisville Lanning » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:43 pm

As of April 30, 2018, here is the most recent information supplied regarding the adapter to mate a C5 Differential with a BC 4-speed Saginaw. Rather than post this information and pictures with the previous posts on this topic, I'm posting this information as a stand alone segment.

Keith Waters has successfully milled a piece of 3/4 inch 6061 T-6 Tempered Aluminum into an adapter. He provided the pictures in three groups and I will present them in the same manner. Here's Group 1

Pictures are numbered in sequence with explanation below.



1. Tail shaft housing of Saginaw 4 speed.

2. Saw off tail shaft tail from flange.

3. Milled flange smooth after sawing.

4. This is where it goes on the trans. This will retain the bearing, the bearing snap ring, and gasket in the original position.

5. Also had to shave one place for nut clearance.

6. shows the nut that has to have clearance.
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Re: C5 Diff to Big Car Saginaw-GROUP 2

Postby Louisville Lanning » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:17 pm

This the second group of pictures submitted by Keith Waters showing his adapter for mating the C5 Differential to a BC 4-speed Saginaw

I'VE ENCOUNTERED A PROBLEM LOADING PICTURES #7-9-PLEASE BE PATIENT UNTIL WE FIGURE OUT THE PROBLEM

GROUP 2 Pictures and Descriptions

7. This is the seal plate on the Corvette differential. It keeps the rear end grease from entering the transmission and visa versa.

8. Shows the thickness of seal plate. Notice the O ring.

9. This is after it has been cut down ( shortened ) as to not protrude out of the differential.

10. Another pic after being cut down.

11. This is the hole that the plate will fill. A manual transmission Corvette will not have this plate. ( uncertain )

12. This is the plate in position. The seal is about an 1/8 larger diameter than the tail shaft. Don't know is this will be a problem or not. Both trans and rear end use the same grease.
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Re: C5 Diff to Big Car Saginaw-GROUP 3

Postby Louisville Lanning » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:01 pm

These are the third and final posting showing Keith Water's adapter for mating a C5 Differential to a BC 4-speed Saginaw

13. This is the diff being slid into place.

14. Houston, we have made first contact.

15. Different angle.

16. Showing nut clearance explained in previous photos.



Not all is worked out yet but I think it is a good start. There is a lot of excess material that can be removed from the outer perimeter. Will probably do that at a much later date.
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Re: C5 Diff to Big Car Saginaw with C5 Rear Suspension

Postby Rick Andersen » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:56 am

Fellow member, Billy Cannon supplied this magazine article from Car Craft's August issue. This article fits right in with what Bob Depalo is doing to Mark Allen's car. The article even mentions Crown Manufacturing's V-8 Corvair.

It looks like many future Corvair V-8 conversions will be moving in the direction of the Corvette C5 setup reported on in this article. This Dobbertin Corvette Interface Suspension Adapter System seems to have a lot of potential for anyone looking to build a mid-engine setup for their car or truck.

http://www.weebly.com/editor/uploads/2/2/2/9/22293452/840320844283893929_v8_corvair_application_2018-08-01_car_craft.pdf

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Tony Martin's C5 Diff to Big Car Saginaw

Postby Rick Andersen » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:42 pm

Here's my progress to date for the forum.

I'd like to contact Keith Waters to see what data format he's been using on the CAD work. I also do some CAD work & I was wondering if what he's
done would be compatible with the CAD programs that I have.

On my build, I still have my concerns about the oil levels of the diff & transmission when allowed to mix freely. I've heard a couple of people mention something about using a oil seal between the trans & diff, but there is no smooth place on the main shaft to run the seal. On my trans, there is a smooth space only about 3/16" long just past the main bearing snap ring. I don't think this is big enough to be practical.


Several of us (Bob Depalo, Keith Waters & myself) who are working on our own BC Sag/C5 diff projects have been discussing the issue about the oil levels when the oil is allowed to move between the trans & the diff. We have agreed that some form of seal would be required to keep the oil separate if we wanted to keep the appropriate oil levels in each. After some discussion & some investigation, we discovered that there is an equivalent mainshaft bearing available with built in seals. This is by far the easiest solution to the problem. Note that the most common version has 2 seals, however it's easy to remove the extra seal. (Just make sure you remove the right one.)

Here's the text descriptions for the pictures.
***************
I’ve been able to see some pictures of a couple of adapter plates made by others, and I decided to use some of their features and also use a
couple of my own design.

picture1
I decided to make a transmission bearing retainer out of aluminum & recess it into the 1" thick 6061 aluminum adapter plate. It has a
snap-ring groove as well as an oil hole drilled for oil flow just like the original tail shaft housing.

picture2
These are the 3 pieces to the adapter plate, as shown from the transmission side. Top left is the bearing retainer, top right is the diff locating plate.
Note that some amount of machining is required in the trans side of the diff locating plate for 3 of the transmission bolt heads.
The bottom is the 1” adapter plate, showing the recess for the bearing retainer. The weird overall shape is because I used a lathe (12” max
diameter) instead of my mill to make sure all the machined features on each side are concentric.

picture3
The same 3 pieces as shown from the diff side.

picture4
The bearing retainer set into its recess in the adapter plate. Note that it is already positioned with the gap where it needs to be to remove the snap ring. The arrow is pointing to a steel threaded insert. This is about the only way to make a bolt work at the bottom of the diff.

picture5
The diff locating plate set into its recess in the adapter.

picture6
The bearing retainer mounted in place in the transmission. Note that it is screwed to the transmission face. This allows the bearing retainer &
its snap ring to stay in place when the differential & adapter plate is removed. It is also already positioned with the gap where it needs to be to remove the snap ring.

picture7
The adapter plate bolted to the trans. Note the recessed holes for the bolt heads.

picture8
The diff locating plate bolted to the adapter plate. (I haven’t cut the groove for the oil ring seal just yet.) The bolt with the arrow needs to be recessed to avoid contact with the ring gear.


(The following goes with the BearingWithSeal.JPG picture)
Here's a picture of my mainshaft retainer in place with the replacement bearing with seal.
Note that I've plugged up the hole under the bearing that was to allow the oil to mix with the diff oil.
Also note that there now is a hole above the bearing. There are matching holes through the adapter plate assembly for venting purposes. This way I share the existing vent in the C5 diff, because I really didn't want to drill a hole in the top of the trans.

(The following goes with the EasyRemoval.JPG picture)
This is the easiest way to pull the Corvair engine! The last time I did this (1969), the car was up on blocks & I was under the car wrestling the engine out with a floor jack.
This work bench should hold at least 800 lbs, & I plan to install the V8, trans & C5 diff the same way. No more shoving it through the door for me.

Tony Martin
Independence, Missouri
http://www.v8registry.com/tony-martin---independence-mo.html
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Re: C5 Diff to Big Car Saginaw with C5 Rear Suspension

Postby Louisville Lanning » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:38 am

It's been some time since Keith Waters has added any new information regarding his C5 project. In a phone conversation with Keith yesterday, he reports that he purchased a wrecked C5 Corvette and has removed the fiberglass body from the Chassis. After that he removed 7 inches from the frame and welded it back together. The front and rear suspension has been reattached. Keith purchased a hoist from Harbor Freight to suspend his Corvair coupe body above the C5 chassis. Now the real work begins. Keith knows that he needs to add 4 inches to the C5 chassis to accommodate the longer wheelbase of the Corvair body. He's moved the body into position before he starts cutting the C5 Chassis again. Keith is taking some time to measuring and study the situation before he starts removing metal from the Corvair body.

The steering has been discussed with Bob Depalo and Keith has decided to use a Mustang II rack & pinon units like Bob is using on Mark Allen's build. These units are readily available ($150) and can be easily adapted to fit the narrowed C5 chassis. Keith submitted a number of pictures showing his most recent work. Here's what he submitted for your review. VIEW THE PICTURES FROM THE BOTTOM UP
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